SolarWinds Network Device Monitor alternatives and competitors

We use it for monitoring our customer networks, for monitoring network devices, and we also use it for monitoring our hosted environment.

We're a managed service provider. We have LogicMonitor deployed so that we not only have our devices input into the system, but we also manage a lot of resources for our clients in it. We have it set up so that they can only see their items in there, through a lot of access control. We have a local presence with the collectors, the polling stations, while the data resides in the cloud. Once we pull the data, it then shifts all the data up to the cloud for long-term storage. LogicMonitor is all SaaS-based, other than the local collectors.

Before LogicMonitor, we were using another tool, and deployment of that tool took a lot of time, effort, and energy from our team, and it was very customized. While the end-product could have been great, because everything is so customizable, the problem was that we couldn't get up and running very quickly. With LogicMonitor, we didn't lose any of that customized look and feel, but we were able to get up and running so much faster. We went from onboarding even simple networks over the course of weeks to down to about a week.

We're able to monitor most of the things that our customers worry or care about. That's mostly because of the flexibility of LogicMonitor. The beautiful part about this is that if something is not currently in the system at the moment, the support from LogicMonitor has meant that it gets ramped up pretty quickly.

For customers who have multiple monitoring platforms, it's definitely very easy to simplify and get to a situation where there is one place for monitoring everything. That's definitely been helpful for them.

LogicMonitor's collectors, along with its templated integrations and dashboards, enable us to automate our onboarding process and roll it out to new customers. We've learned how to make it our own, based on what LogicMonitor provides us. We've been able to make ourselves more efficient, absolutely. The faster we can get online and onboard customers, the faster we can get to the point of turning their service on. That means that we can go from a non-paying customer who has agreed to work with us, to a paying customer who's now fully onboarded. We then have them working through the specifics of a managed services solution, outside of the monitoring tool, which is very important for us.

The breadth of things it's able to monitor, the simplicity of the deployment, and how quickly we can get it up and running are the biggest factors when it comes to helping us win new business. Functionally, there are no aspects of LogicMonitor that hinder that ability. It has definitely helped our margins, as an MSP, especially on the monitoring side, because we can get up and running so quickly. It's an absolute must for us to have the tool.

Seeing how easy it is to manage devices, how simple it is to add, remove, or modify a device, and the amount of data that's included out-of-the-box whenever you add a device, makes it far superior to any product. There are no add-ons needed. You license a resource or a device and you don't have to worry about adding a plugin to get all the additional metrics and the full depth of device data. This just happened last week on a customer demonstration call with a customer that has experience with SolarWinds. The customer saw how easy it was to get up and running on LogicMonitor and they were immediately sold and said, "Okay, give me a quote." That's a real scenario in which this product helped us. It's those aspects that not only help us gain new customers, but also to retain customers.

Overall, LogicMonitor saves us time. It's hard to quantify how much now, given that we've been using it for as long as we have.

When I consider LogicMonitor for future-proofing our business, with the ability to monitor customers' future IT environments, I'm pretty comfortable with it. That's because anything that we have come to them to request—whether it be a new feature, or having input into the UX and UI designs—they've been very open and very responsive to. Their support has been very accommodating. When it comes to looking at what could potentially be coming down the road, or to being future-proofed, I feel pretty good, given my experience with the types of special requests I've brought to them.

One of the most valuable features is the flexibility it gives for monitoring a particular device. There are a variety of ways we can get data into LogicMonitor.

In addition, it is an open platform that gives us the ability to add third-party application integrations, such as Slack or ServiceNow or Webex Teams.

There are also integrated features that allow for forecasting growth within the environment, not only for standard metrics like CPU and memory, but also for hard drive space utilization. Those are some pretty interesting and exciting features that are included in the platform.

On top of that, LogicMonitor has the ability to map out an environment at the network level.

It also enables us to drop a collector and automatically pick up everything in the target IT environment and map relationships. Obviously, you have to have the ability to reach the device. If there is anything stopping you via firewalls, then you can't get to it. But from a hypothetical standpoint, once a collector is in, we can capture everything very quickly based on an IP scheme. This has its advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that we can capture everything very rapidly. However, if there is a misconfiguration on the client's network, then there could be the possibility of grabbing devices that are not needed. So there is some TLC that needs to be done when handling these, but it is a very useful aspect of the tool when it comes to onboarding.

In terms of instant visibility into all of the technology we will monitor for customers, it depends on the customer. But anything the customer wants us to monitor is leveraged. Some customers will say they only want to monitor telephony, while some will only want to monitor their network. We get full visibility into whatever the customer wants us to monitor and we get it pretty rapidly. That is very important. Only having certain metrics that other platforms will give you out-of-the-box means you only get a small picture, a thumbnail picture. Whereas with LogicMonitor, you get the entire "eight by 10 picture", out-of-the-box. Rather than some availability metrics, you get everything. You get metrics on temperature, anything related to hardware failure, or up and down status. It's pretty important for being able to provide a valued service to the customer about the overall health and availability of their environment.

We use LogicMonitor's dashboards quite a bit. In fact, we have our own customized dashboards. We use pieces of the templated dashboards and they definitely help in guiding us to places where we can pull certain indicators of how our customer is doing. Overall, we almost always end up having to adjust the dashboards to fit our customer needs, but the templated dashboards are significantly helpful. They tell us the different methodologies that we can use. We then take them and tailor them for the specifics that we need.

It's super-easy to customize the templated dashboards. For example, we have a school district customer with a campus. The template dashboards give us templates for wireless and templates for general networking and a few other things. We pick and choose the different widgets that we want out of those dashboards and we put them on the single dashboard for that particular school. That provides them visibility into all the things that are critical to them without having to go through multiple dashboards. We get rid of the things that they don't care about, things that our next customer may care about. We try to come up with dashboards that are specific to our customers' wants and needs and to give them, as much as possible, a single place to look for something.

LogicMonitor also hits the vast majority of technologies and complex environments when it comes to coverage, including on-prem, hybrid, cloud, et cetera. It does a really good job at covering the most-used technologies.

The only functional area I can think of that has room for improvement would be the dashboards. They could use a refresh. It would be nice if there were more widgets and more types of widgets.

We've been using LogicMonitor for two and half years.

Up until two weeks ago, I would have said the stability of LogicMonitor is phenomenal. We had never had an issue. But two weeks ago, they had a bumpy week and a half.

Scalability is based on our customers. The process for scaling the product out, for handling the resources from the collector side, is very simple. The one thing we've had issues with is that, when it comes to certain widgets on the dashboards, there are limitations on how many instances can be displayed through a widget. That is something that has caused us to rethink the way that we do our dashboards. Not that that's a bad thing, because it allowed us to actually come up with building dashboards for the client, and that has worked out really nicely. But that is one area where the scalability of the product has been a headache.

Not counting our API accounts, we have around 50 people using LogicMonitor. A lot of them are our frontline staff who are using the system to monitor, alert, notify, and to assist customers with getting their environments back up and running. The other accounts are used by our clients to log in and see their dashboards and devices. There are also folks on the backend, like me, who manage the environment, add the devices, manipulate the devices, delete devices—housekeeping.

We use LogicMonitor quite extensively and we have plans to increase our usage. Any of our clients who were not using us for monitoring before, rather we were being used for other projects by them, are either onboarded now or they're coming on board. The percentage of our clients that we have within monitoring is growing day by day and week by week.

We leverage their tech support quite a bit. They have a chat and a phone feature. For the most part, we leverage their chat and we use them for a very wide variety of things. Overall, I've been very pleased with their level of support. They've done a really good job of turning things around and helping where we've needed the help.

We switched from our previous solution because deployment time was entirely too long and it was too complicated.

Once we were given our initial tutorial of the product, before we onboarded ourselves, it was very easy to do and we have found onboarding and implementation very pleasing. In terms of an MSP onboard, their documentation is some of the best documentation I've seen from a vendor. Based on their documentation, you can very easily onboard yourself. But we also had an executive-level onboarding demonstration.

Our original deployment had professional services involved and it took three or four weeks. But our customer deployments usually take a week. The biggest issue with our customer deployments is having the customer give us the right level of access. Slowdowns don't usually happen from the LogicMonitor side, they're usually from the customer side.

In our own company, we don't have a ton of devices to monitor, so it was really about making sure we got everything incorporated into the monitoring platform, including our cloud services.

In terms of maintenance, the collectors have software that needs to be maintained. The collector software is relatively easy to update. We can do it all from the portal itself. It handles the updates and restarting of the services, and it does so pretty quickly. Generally speaking, there is no downtime for the customer, whenever that happens. Outside of that, there are data sources and other source files that need to be updated on a monthly or  quarterly basis, according to how they're released. At times, those can cause some false positive alerts if they are not handled correctly on the import. In general, I'm the one who handles deployment and maintenance in our company.

We did it ourselves, but we had a few days of LogicMonitor's professional services to get the initial deployment going. Those services were more of a consulting function. Overall, we didn't need nearly as much help as some customers might.

LogicMonitor has given our customers visibility into issues they didn't even know existed. In some cases, when we do assessments, we will actually load a customer's devices into LogicMonitor. In many cases, it gives us visibility into things like misconfigured stack modules or broken stack modules. Stacks or switches won't be stacked correctly. They'll actually be just this side of failing, and nobody has noticed it. Sometimes there are environmental issues that the customer hasn't noticed, where a particular location gets hot every day around the same time. They don't notice it and eventually it's going to result in something failing.

New customer onboarding, for us, usually consists of two things. One is getting access so that we can get it deployed and get visibility into the customer environment. And the second part of it is access for our team. We don't want the LogicMonitor component to take a lot longer. And, in fact, we're able to get LogicMonitor up and running for our customers much quicker than they're able to give us accounts.

It also reduces mean time to repair. When we see an alert, more often than not it's intelligent enough to help us come up with some sort of a solution faster. We can see a service or a server or a switch go into a critical state. A lot of the time, without something like LogicMonitor, which has the full visibility into the device, you would have to log in to the device and do some troubleshooting to figure out what's going on. It could just be that the temperature of the chassis is elevated and it's causing the system to underperform. I can't tell you how much time it saves us on something like that, but scenarios like that are what we experience on a daily basis. It definitely cuts time off of our troubleshooting and response. It's everything from temperature alarms, to disk space, to bad memory modules, and bad hard drives. You name it, we see it. And instead of having to log in and troubleshoot for an hour or two hours, the data is right there in front of us already and we can automatically dispatch somebody to go repair the device.

We're currently paying $525 per month per device for monitoring, and a dollar per device for configuration management.

We've had customers who have reduced their costs by not having multiple platforms for monitoring. That said, especially with super-large environments, the cost model for LogicMonitor is the one area where we run into issues. It's the one area where it can hinder our ability to win new customers. But that's only in very specific cases of very large customers. We're usually competing with something like SolarWinds. SolarWinds is on-premises and the cost model is very different. Sometimes we have challenges with large environments competing against that kind of cost model, where we're paying per node. When there are 3,000 or 4,000 nodes, that cost model can get very expensive very quickly.

There are three different licenses that we can get. There is the monitoring license, there is a configuration-monitoring license, and there is a log license. We've generally gotten the configuration-monitoring version. We're trying to get to a scale where we can get those numbers down. What we'd love to see is the scale of cost per device going down. The numbers get skewed, even still. The cost for 2,000 or 3000 devices shouldn't be the same as the cost for 500 devices, and by a large margin.

The AIOps is the log portion of the solution. We would love to use it, but the way that they have it licensed, we haven't been able to. They want to license it for our entire portal and it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to us. For us, it's challenging the way they have it licensed right now. We're working toward it.

It does give us the ability to charge a premium price but it's a little tough to call something a premium product in the monitoring world—even though we may see it as a premium product—because our customers don't look at it that way. For them, it doesn't matter how great the monitoring tool is.

We looked at three or four others, but that was several years ago. We chose LogicMonitor because of the simplicity of deployment and the time to get up and running. It's simple, but it's still as complicated as it needs to be to do all of the things that we need it to do.

The biggest lesson I have learned from using LogicMonitor is that other products are inferior. Also, compared to what we knew with the legacy monitoring tools, LogicMonitor has done a great job. There are definitely better ways of doing things than the traditional monitoring tools did. If a new customer has SolarWinds or OpManager or some other on-premises tool, sometimes they're afraid of the cloud tools. What we'll say is that the amount of things that it can do far outpaces the legacy tools.

Think thoroughly about the structure you want to have in place. Don't just start implementing. Think thoroughly about how you want to be set up, how you want to manage the devices, how you want to manage the people, and how you want to manage the alerting. Plan, scale it out, and implement it properly so you don't have to go back in and do some cleanup work on the backend after the fact.

I would rate LogicMonitor a high nine out of 10.

We really needed something for reading logs, so we can go back in time, and also something to monitor our network and our infrastructure in real-time. I use it for everything as far as monitoring in real-time goes, to see what's going on in our network, along with Kace. 

It's deployed on-premises, but it's using the cloud to get to you. You can use it on-premises, but we prefer the cloud.

Its network discovery capabilities are very quick and very precise. It really drills down and finds different devices. It found devices I didn't know existed. As a network administrator, that is horrifying. Our team is pretty small and we were hired to tighten things up. Auvik has helped us to do that. It has taken a while, but we found some little switches that people put in years ago that I didn't even know existed.

In addition, it has decreased our mean time to resolution. Something that would take me a couple of hours now takes 30 minutes.

For what I do, the real-time monitoring is the most important feature. When I log in, I can drill down into the network where I'm seeing the issues. It sends an email, "Hey, I cannot communicate with the server." Sometimes it's a false positive, but when I see it several times, there is something else going on and I drill down into that.

It also automatically updates network topology. Once it discovers something new, and we allow it, it will update it within the interface. Then, when you log in to the cloud, it shows it. It's kinds of neat. It shows you exactly where things connect. We can see and connect the dots. It shows you, for example, that this switch has access here, which has access there. And maybe you didn't want it to have access there. It helps you drill down and say, "I didn't want to go this far."

It does out-of-the-box backing up of your running-config for your routers or for your switches. If I need it, it just takes seconds. I can just go to our Auvik port in the cloud, and it's there.

You have to use MFA with it, always. And it's constantly updating for security, and that's very important in today's environment.

This is not even a bad issue, but when Auvik can't get to your network or can't get to a device for whatever reason, it does send you alerts. But sometimes we get false positives, which every now and then is not a big deal. But it would help if they made it a little easier to suppress some of the alarms. But that's really a feature I don't have to have. Sometimes more is better. If you had to twist my arm and to make me come up with something, that would be it.

We bought Auvik in the fall, about eight months ago.

Generally, we have not had an issue. If it's going to be offline, Auvik will tell you well ahead of time that they're going offline for maintenance. It's almost never down. It's only been down twice and the most recent time it was back up very quickly.

It's very scalable. I would definitely give it five stars on that. In our environment, it's looking at 1,562 devices.

I've only had to use their technical support a couple of times and they were top-notch. They were polite and, both times, it was a very dumb question on my part and they didn't make me feel dumb. They are very sharp men and women.

We didn't have a solution before Auvik, other than manual scripts that fit our needs until we grew. Once we grew and it got so overwhelming, Auvik really helped with that. It was very robust, but it wasn't all over the place. When it was said and done, we really loved the whole platform. It was very user-friendly.

It tells you right out-of-the-box the credentials that it's going to need, such as SSH, your logins, et cetera. You set up the network that you want it to go monitor and, with the IDs and passwords, it pulls all the information in. You have to open up and allow Auvik in from your firewall. There are some prerequisites you have to take care of to use it and you may want to suppress a few alarms, out-of-the-box. It took a couple of days and then it had what we need, right there. 

It took some getting used to, but I started figuring things out. And they were always available for any questions that we had.

Currently, it's just our director,  the engineer, and myself who are using Auvik in our company. We're looking to get everybody more access but we just haven't gotten there yet. I'm still trying to figure it out myself, to learn more as I go with it. 

As a cloud-based solution, it requires no maintenance on our side, unless we have to update a password. But there's nothing for us to do in Auvik in terms of maintenance.

For me, part of the return on investment is just knowing it's there. If you need to pull back for litigation, or our 911 facilities are down, that's when you get your return on investment. You don't know how much your return is because it prevents stuff from happening, stuff that could be very costly.

The time to value is excellent. It's worth every penny that you pay for it. It will save you money. It might not be something that finance or an accountant can see, but if you look at what it's preventing, or what it's helping you monitor in the long run, where downtime and the like could be an issue, it helps you get ahead of the game and you're saving money in that way. We're government, so we're not making money outside of taking your taxes, but at the same time, it is saving money. You may not be able to put a dollar value on it, but I can tell you, you are saving money.

For me, it's security. That is why we have it; for security and to help prevent something from happening that would cost a bunch of money. That's where it saves you. And for auditing purposes, it helps you with litigation.

I didn't deal with the pricing of it. Our director did. It took some back and forth negotiating, but we did get close and came to a compromise. Definitely look for your sales rep to take care of it. They really went out of their way to help us out so that we could get the product.

We looked at several products, including Splunk, NetScout briefly, and PRTG. SolarWinds was a product the company used before I got here but we just didn't use it after I started.

With Auvik, I really like the reporting. That's really what sold it, along with the layout. It was just easier to get around and it made more sense. I don't have to sit down and really study logs. And it works in real-time. Some of the other products took a while to give us the reporting, but with Auvik it is right there. If I have an issue with, say, a switch or there is a network where everything is going down at times, Auvik has a great reporting tool and I can just pull up my reports. I can see all the problems I've had. And you can pinpoint things. It tells you, "Hey, you might want to look here. And these could be the reasons why this is happening." The other products didn't do that.

The auditing of the syslogs was important to my director. That was a big selling point for her and that's how we finally got her to buy Auvik. She really likes those for auditing purposes. It was exactly what she was looking for. And for the rest of us, the engineers, it had what we were looking for. It does it all.

My advice is to use their technical support. Yes, you can learn it on your own and it will help you, but don't be scared to use their technical support. Their support is top-notch. Most of them have probably forgotten more about network security than you have ever known about it. Use them. They want to help you. They have training available, so use the training. They offer it to you as part of the package. Watch the videos and do the training, but do not be scared to use their technical support. They're there to help you.

For what Auvik's doing with the switches, I use it all the time. I always look at my emails for any reporting that it does. I usually know a site will go down, because of alerts from Auvik, before anyone calls. Anything from Auvik goes to my alarm. As soon as it reports, I know they're down, even before they call. I use it a lot.

The solution is for network monitoring.

Overall it is a very good tool to use. 

The bandwidth monitoring is a very attractive feature, it can tell you the bandwidth utilization while it is attempting to connect to the host for feedback.

It has the capability to discover a lot of information over the networks automatically.

Network monitoring is not the strongest area of the solution which should be improved. It is not the best tool of the application but if someone has to start from the beginning and reach a moderate level of abilities for monitoring, then PRTG still serves that purpose. For experts, it is not the application monitoring tool they would choose. This tool is more suited for beginners and intermediate users.

The solution has to evolve as an end-to-end monitoring solution. It has to do better at understanding the application at the deepest level.

The performance of the monitoring is outdated and when they have upgraded the tools in the past, it slows down the performance.

Auto Discover features could improve by allowing people the choice to manipulate the discovery to design and customize it to create a technical map of the services dependent on each of them.

They should also add service monitoring. They currently have a Windows service, but they do not have monitoring as a separate service. If I would like to specifically monitor the service within Windows, I would have no choice but to use theirs. 

I have been using the solution for approximately ten years.

It is a stable solution. I did not see any challenges. However, the performance is not that good. When asked about stability, I will split it into two parts. When I go into the devices and I click on the devices, I should see all the devices immediately, I do not, which is a performance issue. When I click on one of the devices in the list of All Devices section, it should show me the graph and the monitoring statistics site. This is where it has failed many times, it does not show it. We complained about this to PRTG many times. I currently find the solution to be 80% stable.

The scalability should come deep within the roots of the solution. The root of PRTG is having a lot of sensors inside because they work on monitoring sensors. The more sensors you have, the more you can scale. The good thing about the solution is that you can make your own sensors. This means it is scalable.

I did not have a good experience with customer service. They were not able to give answers in a timely manner. They were able to give some less complex answers but when the questions become difficult, they find it very difficult to manage a solution. For example, what do bandwidth monitoring and bandwidth sensor mean? I think they should be able to explain this to me better, they could not explain it well. Their bandwidth sensors do not really work as a bandwidth sensor.

I think they might have some missing knowledge or they have unqualified employees sitting down and reading the documents from their screen to the customers, like myself. I find that technical support could have been much better, they have been a company for many years. They need to continue to support their customers in a much better way and should hire experts as other organizations do. When contacting support it is handled by the very first level of agents, then it is escalation up for an answer. I did not like this about the support, it takes time. I find myself left trying to solve the problem myself.

The technical support requires a lot of improvements, they offer a lot of information to be downloaded and used by the customer. I think it has to be supported much better to allow customers the ability to easily deploy it and use it effectively.

I did not have any challenges attempting to install the solution. It was quite straightforward, you do not need any training to install it. The experience was good.

The deployment is the longest part of the setup. I would say the installation did not take much time but the complete utilization of the software took three or four hours. I had to configure it properly, discover the sensor, support the sensor, utilize it to the best possible way, make a group, and put in the site. All of these processes take time. If somebody has experience in PRTG, I think it can be done in half day.

I have evaluated SolarWinds and it is one of the easiest for beginners to start working with network monitoring.

I would recommend this solution to others. However, if they are a beginner, there are other products out there that might be more appropriate, like SolarWinds.

I rate PRTG Network Monitor a seven out of ten.

We are using Zabbix in my workplace to monitor the infrastructure.

We are able to monitor our virtual infrastructure, virtual machines, windows servers, databases, and the network using a simple network management protocol. We are able to pull almost all the metrics that we want, receive notifications, and have them integrate with telegrams for certain devices that are critical, such as UPSs.

Zabbix does not draw automatic mapping of the network, this is something they should add in the future. There is a lot of effort that is involved in tailoring some of the settings which could be made easier. 

I have been using Zabbix for approximately four years.

Zabbix is scalable because depending on the size of your infrastructure you can have distributed proxies servers across your network that will feed to the main server for the metric. It is similar to branches, where you can have one product for each branch and then the central server speaking in your central location, it works perfectly.

Our entire IT department is using Zabbix, which is 15 people, but we have approximately 600 devices being monitored.

I have never had an issue that I needed to contact support. However, everything I have needed was able to be found online from the community or the Zabbix site manuals. Zabbix does offer support based on a subscription.

I was using Centurion previously but I decided to switch to Zaddix because of costs. I was using the community edition of Centurion and it was very limited but with Zabbix, you can have an enterprise-class monitoring solution for free. I did research quickly and then I phoned Zaddix to see if they could solve all my problems without having to pay anything. This is when they confirmed I could and then I switched.

The initial setup was easy. It took approximately three hours to get the server up and running.

By using Zabbix you minimize the cost of operation because you recieve an enterprise-class monitoring solution for free.

The solution is free to use but they offer support as a paid service. If you can go read the manuals and do the fine-tuning based on your needs, you do not need to pay anything and you will have a full solution.

I have evaluated PRTG and SolarWinds.

You do not need to spend a lot of money on solutions that have similar functionality, such as PRTG or Solar Winds. With Zabbix, you receive a free enterprise-class monitoring solution for free, as long as you know how to use it.

I would recommend this solution to others.

I rate Zabbix a nine out of ten.

The primary use case of this solution is for Network Monitoring.

The most valuable feature is the availability to put health checks in place not only for the infrastructure but for some of the services that are on top of the infrastructure. This allows us to identify the performance of the infrastructure.

Integration with some other tools, and integration with some Network Packet Broker, need some improvement.

We have been using DX Spectrum for approximately nine months.

This solution is stable. We have not experienced any outages.

It's a cloud solution, so it's scalable.

We have not contacted technical support yet.

We are also using Microsoft Network Node Manager.

The main difference is the availability to do the health-check on not only the devices but also some application services. These are in addition to the infrastructure, and with Network Node Manager, it's more based on infrastructure.

Also, the Drill down feature that DX Spectrum provides is something the Network Node Manager typically cannot do, as well as to drill down on a specific case or on a specific device.

That's also a really good feature of DX Spectrum.

The initial setup was quite straightforward.

The price is very high.

It makes it very difficult with respect to the business because, with any other product, we have to look at a lower-cost licensing model. It would have to be much lower than this one.

It would make sense to have some kind of corporate license with some additional flexibility.

We evaluated SolarWinds and Azure.

We are still looking at other solutions to increase the capacity of the devices that are being monitored with DX Spectrum.

We have a small set of devices being monitored and we are running a project to try to duplicate the monitoring on those devices.

DX Spectrum has been great for us. It's the strongest available, the main problem is the pricing, but it's in accordance with the features.

I can recommend this solution to others who are interested in using it. 

I would rate DX Spectrum an eight out of ten.